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Our founding fathers were not simply old, rich, white men trying to make a buck as some on the left maintain. They were serious, sober, and brilliant men who were well read in political philosophy and well acquainted with the forces that lead to tyranny.

There were several learned men whose writings served as inspiration for our Constitution and form of government, perhaps chief among them being John Locke and Charles de Montesquieu.

Regarding the separation of powers issue and the need for a judiciary free from partisan/political pressure, Montesquieu wrote:

The political liberty of the subject is a tranquility of mind, arising from the opinion each person has of his safety. In order to have this liberty, it is requisite the government be so constituted as one man need not be afraid of` another.

When the legislative and executive powers are united in the same person, or in the same body of magistrates, there can be no liberty; because apprehensions may anse, lest the same monarch or senate should enact tyrannical laws, to execute them in a tyrannical manner.

Again, there is no liberty, if the power of judging be not separated from the legislative and executive powers. Were it joined with the legislative, the life and liberty of the subject would be exposed to arbitrary control, for the judge would then be the legislator. Were it joined to the executive power, the judge might behave with all the violence of an oppressor.

There would be an end of every thing were the same man, or the same body, whether of the nobles or of the people to exercise those three powers that of enacting laws, that of executing the public resolutions, and that of judging the crimes or differences of individuals.
- The Spirit of the Laws, - 1748


We have been hearing very disturbing things from this president, things that turn everything on which this country stands upon it’s head.

Be careful of people empowered to execute the laws taking it upon themselves to legislate them and declare them legal by virtual fiat.

It is the responsibility of the Supreme Court to serve as a balance to executive and legislative abuse when it becomes so oppressive that it ventures into issues it had prefer not to judge.

However … Montesquieu was right in his analysis and the Founding Fathers, in their design of our government and inclusion of the Bill of Rights, thankfully agreed with his concerns.

If only they’d put a little more teeth into their prohibitions.

In that regard, and in light of federal overreach over the last 6 decades, the Anti-Federalists have been shown to be justified in their fears of a all-controlling centralized-control federal government..


( 40 comments — Leave a comment )
Apr. 4th, 2012 02:59 pm (UTC)
No - it's not "s some on the left maintain." In fact we are well aware of the larger issues and really only state that partial truth because it bugs those on the right.

Truth is that when you look at the history, the revolution didn't matter a whole lot to the average colonist of the day (until things started going their way, the shooting got close etc...) and at many points (and certainly prior to the events in Lexington and Concord) there were times when the Tory sentiment outnumber Rebel sentiment significantly. This will, of course, be misconstrued as anti-American, Founder hostility or etc... it isn't. It is a statement of the events of the day. I am quite happy it ended the way it did; but you can spin it how you like - it's your post.

The legislation and executive offices are still quite securely separate and your "gridlock as policy" Republicans have no real worry there. Even when the DNC had control of both houses and the POTUS they could barely get their consensus together and actually utilize their super majority to do anything significant except the passing of PPAHCA which I hope is stuck down as silly (so long as they can surgically retain the good parts). As for the courts... no - it seems they are doing just as they were intended to do.

So - a related question...

When states (like IL, SD, LA, MD, FL for some example) are shown to have histories of corrupt state governments... FAR more corrupt on a per capita basis than the rest of the country... what is supposed to counter that... their internal state mechanisms that allowed the states to drift into corruption in the first place? No one (except the perps) have a love of corruption. So ?

Oh so many issues - I wishI could actually write down all the things I intend to go on about - I forget most ... there are so many. I just need a jog of memory sometimes.

Edited at 2012-04-04 03:01 pm (UTC)
Apr. 4th, 2012 03:12 pm (UTC)
All governments are necessary evils.

If THE PEOPLE were not as corrupt as they are, the excesses of government would be less.

People often get what they deserve.

The Democrats almost never compromise and the republicans alwaus get stuck when they nake deals.

Obama is LYING again about his bogus $10 of cuts for $1 of taxes.

Reagan fell for it once and the Democrats reneged and spending skyrocketed.

PLUS, a cut is not a cut anyway. As I have been telling people for 25 years. It's just a tiny reduction in the rate of increase.

Obama is sounding more and more like a South American dictator ... which is par for the course when you actually look at his past.

Of course NO ONE wanted to do that in 2007-2008 and they are still trying to hide it today.

Of course revolutions and wars are always unpopular in the beginning. America was also overwhelmingly opposed to getting into WW II.

So what.

THAT'S what leadership and patriotism are all about.

We are becoming a nation of whiners and "feed me" slobs ... at least the part that think they are entitled to a free lunch.

Unfortunately, we may have reached the tipping point and we are already seeing a preview of what the result of that will look like.

Nice job utopians!
Apr. 4th, 2012 03:43 pm (UTC)

"The Democrats almost never compromise and the republicans alwaus get stuck when they make deals."

One of the biggest untruths I have ever heard you (often) repeat.

Again - an issue we will NEVER agree on.
Apr. 5th, 2012 12:08 am (UTC)
On what did the Democrats compromise in ObamaCare?

On the Stimulus?

On the Continuing Resolutions and debt ceiling?

On amnesty?

On spending cuts?

Reagan made a deal with the Democrats on taxes and amnesty and the stabbed him in the back. When Democrats have been in the minority they cry and whine and kick their feet until the Republicans give in and cross the aisle.

Whe the Democrats are in the majority, especially as they were in Obama's first two years, they told the republicans (and the American people who kicked their asses in 2010) to go to Hell.

Facts are such inconvenient things ... aren't they?

Apr. 6th, 2012 02:45 am (UTC)
Welcome to the BWNC
Welcome to the Bizzaro World National Convention!

I do not have time to go into all this today - too much going on...

ObamaCare was nothing BUT a compromise - the plan you would have got - the better option - would have sent your side into chaos and made health care in this country MUCH MUCH better. It also ponied up to the insurance companies far too much.

Simulus - you mean all the plans you guys started and the D's basically enhanced - you mean how GM is now turning record profits and is in the process of paying it's bills back... you mean how MILLIONS of manufacturing jobs were salvaged with a network of benefits that spread out to all other sorts of areas of the economy? Like how we can continue to have an industry that is now MUCH more modern and progressive and can provide the levels of tech development and capacity like the same one that dug us out of WW2?

The Debt Ceiling was an unnecessary crisis - and FULL of compromises - and you guys seem to have a history of raising it as well... and somehow shutting down the government seems like a good plan somehow? Really?

Which Amnesty - there are several. Immigration? There needs to be some work there. No one gets everything they want...

Spending cuts have been nothing but give give give you guys give nothing back. NOTHING. just NO.

Reagan did understand one thing... you need to work both sides of the issue or you get nothing. You guys do nothing but scorched earth now. It will be back to bite you in the butt. When you salt the fields nothing grows.

I noticed you avoided how the Democrats were MIRED trying to work with the house Republicans to the point athat their constituents were annoyed with how they got their Super Majority and were NOT USING IT. If they did you would have oh so much more to go on about.

Significant cuts to Medicaid and Medicare
Significant decreases in Revenue Increases
Gitmo's still open
Legitimized the suspension of due process
FAR more gun friendly than the right portrays
gay marriage not resolved
the contraception debacle
cuts to unnecessary regulation
reductions in federal positions
Junior era tax cuts

These guys had a super majority and they stumbled over EVERYTHING...

You talk about liberal use of obscure parliamentary processes... what is Reconciliation? THREE TIMES ... THREE TIMES... used to push Juniors tax cuts - and ONE TIME to pass the PPAHCA in the Obama Administration... What's good for the goose... Glad it might get struck by the renegade judiciary, but we covered our opinions on that - I dislike it for the wrong reasons and I don't dislike it enough.
Apr. 6th, 2012 03:31 am (UTC)
Re: Welcome to the BWNC
RE ObamaCare was nothing BUT a compromise - the plan you would have got - the better option - would have sent your side into chaos and made health care in this country MUCH MUCH better. It also ponied up to the insurance companies far too much.

*ROFLOL* You are officially in la la land!

The Republicans were totally shut out of the process. NO ONE EVEN READ THE BILL BEFOR IT WAS RAMMED THROUGH ... by A CORRUPT PROCESS.

Plus, there were pages and pages of "to be filled in later" by Kathleen Sebellius.

Almost THREE THOUSAND PAGES of government takeover of everything involving healthcare and some things no (like EPA regulations) because EVERYTHING affects health - right?

Oh, you want to lecture me on reconciliation?

I know EXACTLY what it is and what it is FOR. I wrote many posts explaining it.

It is simply meant to pass legislation by simple majority desogned to REDUCE THE DEFICIT!

They LIED as the recent CBO estimates (which are still lowballing) have determined the costs will more than DOUBLE and ObamaCare will ADD TRILLIONS to the debt.

They even tried to use a trick and DEEM it passed with a vote on the bill itself before Elena Kagan's office went into a panic on how they'd defend it.

Hey, Mike. Nancy Pelosi actually CHANGED THE LOCKS on the meeting room doors to deny Republican access.

When you try to blow out that revisionist hisory, please confine it to the drones who don't know anything and don't actually follow current events.

Shame on you. Spinning your diversionary propaganda to distract from the REAL ISSUES.

Hey, Mike. Obama CUT $500 BILLION from MediCare to fool the CBO into counting it as SAVINGS, and then ADDED it back in for MedicAid.

Revenue? Obama's not worried about revenue, or deficits, or debt. He WANTS to overwhelm the system. That is what he learned from Cloward and Piven at Columbia. And Bill Ayers. And the ACORN mobsters. These are the people he chummed with and their goal is to destroy capitalism.

Oh, brother!

You should be a full-time propagandist. Teach the Alinsky tactics.

There's a sucker born every minute.
Apr. 6th, 2012 03:35 am (UTC)
Re: Welcome to the BWNC
Incidentally, the insurance companies will be put out of business because, as Obama said, that is his goal!

And then it will be Obama's Death Panels deciding if grandma gets her pacemaker or a pain pill.

They are ALREADY making "recommendations" for tests, medicine and treatments to be withdrawn by physicians because they might be too "costly", especially for people who haven't many more years or positive contributions to make.

JUST AS WE SAID they would.

P.S. I'd give you a link but I know you don't click on them. :-D

Edited at 2012-04-06 03:37 am (UTC)
Apr. 6th, 2012 04:02 am (UTC)
Re: Welcome to the BWNC
Glad I could give you a laugh - you sound like you need it. I can promise you I had the same reaction.

I (and many others, who were actual supporters of the POTUS) are generally annoyed with the LACK of liberal backbone this guy has shown - the number of times he has rolled over on us and given in to your folk and displayed so little of the fire he showed us before. We have wondered how he does so many things for your side and yet you still cannot accept him even in small doses. That's another reason we cannot take you seriously.
Apr. 6th, 2012 04:32 am (UTC)
Re: Welcome to the BWNC
Hey ... didn't Obama give you the *wink wink* that after he's elected he'll be able to act with a little more "flexibility"?

Get serious! He's operating as an imperial president, the kind you were supposed to despise so much.

You fooled enough people into thinking he was a "moderate" and are trying to change the subject so people will somehow forget what a disaster he's been.

How much more damage could he do without causing himself to lose in a massive landslide.

As it is, it's taking the entire left-wing media and the entertainment industry to cover for him and attempt to smear any and all opposition.

Small doses?

Hey, the EPA is trying to fulfill his promise to bankrupt the coal industry as we speak, more and more billions are going down the green-energy ratholes, we'll have accumulated well over $6 TRILLION in debt in only 4 years, millions of jobs lost, the price of everything is skyrocketing, potential race riots are fermenting, Erope is collapsing, Egypt is firing missiles into Israel and the Arab Spring has resulted in THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD gaining political power in Egypt, billions in aid from Obama, and meetings in the White House.

The oldest terrorist organization in the world that spawned bin Laden and his minions are growing in power and influence and you leftists laughed when we warned this would happen.

And you STILL don't take responsibility for the damage you're responsible for ... it's always someone else's fault.

But you plow away on the same rut anyway. How nuts is that? :-D
Apr. 6th, 2012 05:00 am (UTC)
Re: FIVE - just give me five - it's at the end.
Yes - I did see that. It reminded me of one of my trade organizations when we were trying to get a product approved... we got a similar comment...

When will you realize he's a politician just like every other politician.

There are in fact many who are of neither party inclination who voted not so much for him but against the other guy. Until you all figure that out you will never get folk like me over to your side. The lesser of two evils is still evil.

So far all the polls I have seen show the same ol same ol... even your guys seem to be admitting that they aren't sure Mit can do it... they sure don't seem to like him much... LOL

I think the coal industry has done a good job of beating itself up. It will not go out of business. Energy is essential. It might scale back... will ... and as you said - other things will come in.

Invest in alternatives now before it is too late. When you need them, it's a terrible time to start. Best to get ahead of that curve.

Yes the Muslim Brotherhood is troublesome. If I am so anti religion, don't you think it obvious that I would dislike them as well? You do know, of course, that we have no real authority or power to define the Egyptian legacy, don't you? You do know that every time we try to it goes to hell in a hand basket, right? You are aware of our history in Middle Eastern Despots both with D adn R POTUS, right; or have we forgotten the hugging , hand holding, kissing, bowing, and walks in the garden? You have not forgotten how oil companies and chemical companies operate(d) in the Middle East, Asia and India? You ahve not forgotten that we had to enact anti corruption laws that extend US corruption charges to activities outside the US due to the illegitimate dealings US corporations overseas?

Terror is terror. They are criminals. They will not go away ever. they will wain and wax and wain again. The trick is to deal with them.

This admin and the military and itel community have capture and or killed more high priority targets in 3 years than yours did in 8! They have NOT done all people like me want - and we are not happy about it - but they have done more. And there was no comment from you after you made some prediction back a ways about you expected that just before some election we'd suddenly get this OBL is dead as an election booster event... nope - didn't happen. It was all in a days work (still think he need sto be careful claiming HE did it - which he has not done a lot of - has ALWAYS credited the SEALS - as he should - that was a tough darn dog too... Belgian - that must be unamerican...LOL).

You guys cannot take a shred of blame for ANYTHING... WOW! The Hubris! Gimmmie one - and I don't mean that BS about how your only fault is that you can't run a TV network for fear of getting beat up or how incompetent you are at getting your message out... gimmei one... gimmie 5 - I have given you FAR more than 5 over the years of things I think the liberals are wrong on.... I am sure you can do 5... FIVE things the Conservatives have screwed up on... I'll even let you go back to GHWBush. FIVE. Give it a try.... it's very cathartic.
Apr. 6th, 2012 04:04 am (UTC)
Re: Welcome to the BWNC
Changed the locks HA HA HA HA HA She has wit.

Honestly had not heard that one... but it is funny as hell - who knew she had that kind of humor.
Apr. 6th, 2012 04:54 am (UTC)
Re: Welcome to the BWNC
Don't know how you missed that. I posted it in LJ.


But then I documented hundreds of facts you have ignored or dismissed as "noise".

But you keep moving the goalposts as a good lib. Deny truth. Claim the Democrats were negotiating in good faith. repeat all the NPR/PBS/CBS/NBC/AVC/CNN/MSNBC/DNC talking points and then when you're caught you make it a joke.

But you have proved my point over and over. If you cannot understand what's going on right in front of your eyes on a daily basis, how do you expect to have any credibility interpreting history and past events.

It remains true that liberals believe so many things that aren't true ... to a point.

I actually know you DON'T believe everything you say but, as a good Alinskyite, you spout it anyway because the end justifies the means.

That's where you libs have the advantage - I'd never even CONSIDER tricking someone into believing a narratuive by misleading or, perhaps even worse, hiding the facts when I know them.
Apr. 6th, 2012 05:05 am (UTC)
Re: Welcome to the BWNC
I don't necessarily ignore. I simply don't have time. I am down to one person and I had four. I cannot even watch the news most days - I have to go for the abbreviated notes. Too busy. and to be fair I would rather spend time with the kids... I like ya and all, but they have to come first.

And I did not ignore this one - did I I saw it and I laughed - it was a riot!

I still disagree with you opinions - I rarely if ever question real facts.

She must be a hoot at cocktail parties... I've always thought of her more as a humorless witch with a "W" witch...

Funny stuff what was that an episode of National Lampoon? Changed the locks HA HA HA HA HA
Apr. 6th, 2012 05:09 am (UTC)
Re: Welcome to the BWNC
Ddue! that was like... three years ago! Really! still freakin funny

I wonder if she was tossing their briefcases and suit jackets out on the national mall while cursing them from the dome and calling the Cap police for a domestic disturbance.

Oh the visual.

How did the Onion not pick up on that?! they must have been sleeping one off.
Apr. 6th, 2012 04:05 am (UTC)
Re: Welcome to the BWNC
and now we get to why I don't bother with most of your comments. BRB...
Apr. 6th, 2012 03:50 am (UTC)
Mike drank the Kool-Aid
Hey, Mike.

GE will NOT pay off their debts to the taxpayers. The little they DID pay was payed with BAILOUT MONEY they didn't use.

Record profits?

Sure ...

all there previous debts were wiped away.

their bondholders were FORCED to sell the holdings for nickels on the dollar.

they don't pay taxes

the taxpayer is STILL subsidizing them

they had to go into BANKRUPTCY, remember? Like you said they COULDN'T DO!

Like I said they should without having a government takeover.

Hey, Mike! How are your electric cars doing?

How much is the taxpayer on thew hook for that debacle.

Record profits! *lol*

No tax bill.

Big bonuses for all the union people.

Last I saw they still owe the taxpayer around $40 billion ... plus compounded interest ... and we'll never see it.

Hey Mike ... that sounds like one of those evil corporations you're always railing against.

Obama has frittered away TRILLIONS and what do we have to show for it?

A bunch of rich Obama supporters and a disintegrating America.

And you'll STILL vote for this guy in 2012 because you've drunk the Kool-Aid and you refuse to accept reality.
Apr. 6th, 2012 04:21 am (UTC)
Re: Mike drank the Kool-Aid
Kool-Aid... a funny reference. Jim Jones... yet another religious fanatic / lunatic. I guess I am picking on him for not believing as I do.

You know, I hope, there are atheist conservatives... I guess that's impossible.

Kool-Aid... good stuff. I grew up on it. Way to disparage a proud American product.

You have consumed far more of your share than I have my friend. I'm afraid you are beyond any hope of antidote.

I am assuming you mean GM - we were talking about GM. Yes I just listened to their CEO on the radio talk all about it. Seems pretty convinced they will pay most if not all back. Nonetheless - the remaining discussion please... (reading on...)

nickels on the dollar or nothing on the dollar? I think nickels would be better than nothing.

He also had some really good discussions on the Volt. Was pretty interesting. Sure it has been less than stellar. The Prius was at first too - still is actually. It's considered an emerging product concept that will take more time. I've been renting some of their cars lately - getting better. I still prefer Fords. The Fusion is fantastic.

Yes we get all upset about the bonuses... So? You defended others with theirs. I seem to recall you saying something about contracts and how you had to honor them - but you only seem to say that when it is your friends that get them.

Yes I do fully believe that the tax payers should get that money back. I also believe they will. I also believe that it is ESSENTIAL that we keep our heavy industry as healthy as possible. I seem to recall you saying (excuse if I am wrong and if you did not I HAVE heard Hannity and Limbaugh say it) that sending jobs to China opened up new opportunity here and allowed the work to be done cheaper there. Sounds like a distinct weakening of our industrial base... and from a relative that works there and whose job it is to combat the problem - NOTHING - No industrial or corporate or other intellectual property that is exposed to the Chinese is neglected. They steal every single letter of it and are fully intended to use it against us. Some friends. Oh and only the Democrats have caved to the Chinese, right (CU)? Of course...

I will not vote for Romney - he's a waffle-faced fraud and he's a comic buffoon. Santorum is completely crazy (although only slightly less than Bachmann) and you have all done a good job of marginalizing Newt. He was such a raving success as Speaker... at F&F Macs, and the primaries have just been fanTASTIC for him... he comes off so well doesn't he.

HA HA HA HA HA... ahhhhh and I was having such a bad day.
Apr. 4th, 2012 03:44 pm (UTC)
The rest of that is just repeated talking points we have already argued and we will waste nothing but time on it... so back to work for me. Very busy.

Apr. 4th, 2012 04:13 pm (UTC)
Q & hopefully A
So why are they a necessary evil?
Apr. 5th, 2012 12:02 am (UTC)
Re: Q & hopefully A
Because, in order to achieve security, prosperity and maintain freedom, people surrender a part of their soverignty to other men who, when not virtupus, moral and ethical ... and true to the limits of their contract, tend to become despotic.

Read Locke, Montesquieu, de Toqueville. Government should exist to PRESERVE freedom and the rights of the individual ... not to create a utopian STATE.

And recall these quotes from a couple of those rich white men from whom you hold such contempt:

"Government at its best is a necessary evil, and at its worst, an intolerant one." – Thomas Paine

"That government is best which governs least." - Thomas Jefferson

"All men having power ought to be distrusted to a certain degree." - James Madison

"Freedom is not a gift bestowed upon us by other men, but a right that belongs to us by the laws of God and nature. - Benjamin Franklin

Apr. 5th, 2012 02:14 am (UTC)
Re: Q & hopefully A
It was actually a semi rhetorical question.

You forget... philosophy student. Read Locke. I am already aware of the answer.

It is incomplete.
Apr. 5th, 2012 08:57 pm (UTC)
Re: Q & hopefully A
I propose to you that there is no less a streak of despotism in the RNC than in the DNC - and then some. These National Parties want nothing more than to conserve power to their party and no one else. The RNC is no different.

A good and functioning government preserves the rights of the individual AND advances the quality of life, improves the security of, improves the welfare (in the traditional sense, not the policy sense) health and conscience of the society - and having attained some measure of success it should seek to assist others that desire it to attain similar goals for the sake of moral need, security and general human decency.

"All men having power ought to be distrusted to a certain degree." - James Madison - Agreed WHOLE HEARTEDLY

Paine - absolutely. Of course it is a matter of discussion where the lines are. Funny you would turn to him save you know he is one of my all time heroes.

Jefferson - Oh I do agree... I might rephrase it in terms of efficiency... you never seem to understand that I value efficiency and that small things tend to (but are not always) more efficient. I am VERY consistent on that note.

I have to disagree with Franklin for several reasons... you already know them He was captive by the prevailing theological reasoning and sentiments of the day. Many of the great minds of the time were. Just as their view of slavery was a product of their time.

You know one thing that drives up government costs... when they do away with a government job and replace it with a contract. I see this every single day at my work. It is disgusting when it happens. Low bidder might be saving now, but it doesn't save later.
Apr. 5th, 2012 11:08 pm (UTC)
Re: Q & hopefully A
1. Your comments about the RNC have nothing to do with despotism which is what
liberalism, progressivism,socialism, fascism, statism and the Democrat Party stand for ... control over each and every aspect of our lives.

Conservatism is the antithesis of such Statism.

The Republican Party establishment, as I have repeated for years, is dedicated to maintaining and strengthening their positions government, cutting deals with the Democrats, and who, along with you leftists, despise conservatives.

2. Oh, really? Ben Franklin was a "captive" of the conventional thinking of his time? *ROFLOL*

And when was this? Where did you pick up that little bit if spin? Oh, yeah ... those guys were really dullards and so naive. Oh, and slavery? They mostly abhorred it but it was a fact of life across the globe and they had to delay its abolition to get the country started.

Many of Franklins ideas on freedom and so forth came from Locke who, as I'm sure you know, was died several years before Franklin was even born. Their learning and intellects would have without a doubt made Barack Obama, who was immersed in leftist ideology from his youth, look like a fool.

Hey, Mike. Obama says he "believes" in God, praises Jesus, that he is his redeemer, that he believes in the resurrection, etc., etc. He cites Jesus to give credence to his politics.


but this is the problem with most all you leftists.

You DON'T believe rights are natural and God-given.

Except when you're talking about the rights to birth control and abortion and gay marriage and food stamps and robbing Peter to subsidize Paul. *lol*

It is not the job of the government to ADVANCE anything but freedom and carry out those TASKS we the governed entrust them with.

They are supposed to PROMOTE the general welfare and SECURE the blessings of liberty.

A government CANNOT legally assume more authority that that granted it, nor can even a majority of individuals legally empower anyone or any entity, grant anyone more authority or power than they themselves have.

But ... if you want the kind of all-powerful STATE that Ruth Bader Ginsberg and the othe left-wing activist Justices hunger for ... start your own country, surrender your rights, and write your on tyrannical constitution.

Just leave ours alone.

And do tell us how you're coming along. ;-)
Apr. 6th, 2012 03:58 am (UTC)
Re: Golly - all the dodges
I guess you have never heard of conservative Socialists - you really should read the history of Russia. It's pretty interesting.

As for all the rest of this... see my comment on drinking water.

Franklin was a wonderful and fantastic person - I would no more expect him to go on about Atheism as I would have him go on about atomic clocks. We are ALL captives of our day.

Hmmm... "abhorred it but it was a fact of life across the globe ..." (yes I took history class as well - majored in it actually) ... and (now logic time) you say these people were not 'of the conventional thinking of his time?'

What is it - a lack of conviction, uncertainty. Slavery had been pretty much vanquished from mainland Europe before the Constitution was dry. It was a leading cause of heckling from the Europeans (even as several of them held slaves into the mid 1800s in their colonies - the continent had pretty much already done away with most of it).

Obama says he believes in God... yes I know he says that. You keep reminding me of the thing he has had to repeat (hey I thought you guys ALL thought he was Muslim) over and over because you all keep bringing it up.
1 I don't care... much
2 it's his life
3 Keep it out of my public policy
4 Poles show that it would be near impossible for an atheist to win the WH (as I recall we have only ever had one openly Atheist Congress Person, Pete Stark). This would also be an interesting point ot make about some of the less religious historical figures of our past that could not have spoken out in this manner - in some days that would be political and actual suicide)
5 So what

You asked - I answered - you rarely answer mine... so... a freebee

That's the problem with you guys - you think this is a nation found by god of god for god. It isn't. Remember the Treaty of Tripoli? PS - This deity of yours seems quite fickle when picking sides. Cannot seem to decide which side it's on. Ya have to remember, if everyone says god is on their side someone has to be wrong, and wouldn't it be odd if he actually picked sides... how pathetic.

EXCEPT NOTHING OF THE SORT go back and read for your own ref

And many times we cite your dogmas to point out the inconsistency between your faiths and your application of your faiths - which has me waiting for the latest round of blood absolution.

The whole can be worth more than the sum of the parts.

As for " But ... if you want the kind of all-powerful STATE..." etc... Again - I disagree with your opinion... and I disagree with the sentiment. See comment on water again. It is a subtlety you don't get.

It is in fact my country as well. Not just yours. I have the luxury of being able to have an opinion. I actually served my time to earn it, beyond just being born. I served in good faith, on good terms, with honor and did not ditch my time - even fulfilling what was a questionably legal forced extension of my time, getting a legal injury within coverage by policy and being defrauded of my medical treatment for it which I cannot now afford and cannot sue to recoup compensation- and finished my time without bowing out early because it was convenient to do so.

You guys like to throw people out that don't agree with you... We aren't going anywhere. I earned the right.

And this is the smarmy attitude that loses the right so much potential support.

So you didn't answer... how you like that RNC Candidate... he's pretty... uhm... plain?

Golly look at all the dodged comments...
Apr. 6th, 2012 04:20 am (UTC)
Re: Golly - all the dodges
Who ("you guys") thinks Obama is a Muslim?

The only well-known person I know who ever brought it up (through her 2008) campaign was HILLARY CLINTON. Remember? I think it was 2008.

Why doesn't it matter if Obama claims he believes basically the same thing Rick Santorum believes about God, Jesus, the Resurrection, Salvation, and all that other MAGIC stuff?

Actually, he CLAIMS his "religion" it DOES affect his decision-making and ideology and policies.

He does things (he claims) Jesus would support.

He says he prays for guidance.

I actually know HOW it affects his belief system and why.

Your last comment tends to imply he is LYING.

Is that what you really think?

You see, I know what he really believes because I know his background and, as always, how he MANIPULATES the language to fool people into thinking he's saying something when he's not.

He does that all the time ... he thinks he's so clever but it's only that people lack both understanding and critical thinking.

But you're not interested in facts because that would mess up everything you WANT to believe. Right? ;-)
Apr. 6th, 2012 04:31 am (UTC)
Re: Golly - all the dodges
Been to any tea party events - they even had signs.

I still run into "right" (IU) wingers all the time (as recently as last week) tell me he was a "closet "Islamicer (sic)" - is tha ta sort of lettuce?).

Jesus would support health care for all. And I recall something about a camel and a needle...

No - my last comment implies (you inferred it incorrectly) taht I could care less... he could be lying - or not. I don't care. I know that the current state of things will not give us anyone that is openly Atheist. I'm not being manipulated - I ignore the xtian content from Carter as well - he is FANTASTIC as an exPOTUS. I ignore Clinton's as well (oh comeon, Bill's a good Christian? Really? In good standing?).

The reality is that we - people like me - secular - we have to make; are EXPECTED to make concessions on these things.

It is OK for people to throw this religious nonsense in my face; but I am a bad person if I - even in good nature - offer even the slightest non-theist response... that IS a fact.

Your facts are yet again - weak opinions.


But we are all waiting with baited breath for the second term to see if the hidden uberbama will come out from under his rather nice suit and expose the secret hidden agenda he has been harboring for all this time to unleash hell upon the earth ...

I bet it just make you guys crazy to know he gets a life time of secret service protection and pension ... I hope you think about it every time you sign an IRS document. I know it makes my Mum crazy just thinking about it... Ahhhh Xtian Charity...
Apr. 6th, 2012 05:18 am (UTC)
Re: Golly - all the dodges
Who has said Obama is a Muslim? Someone who is not some anonymous person holding a dumb sign or some obscure non-entity.

The TEA Parties have had left-wing plants all the time. I even posted sites of liberal activists calling people to crash events.

Come on, Mike. Give me someone we all know.

Or are you just repeating the liberal talking points?

Oh, so Obama's wacky radical Black Liberation theology, and his little circle of religio/political activists means nothing to you but Rick Santorum being a Catholic is an issue.

I see. :-D

Apr. 6th, 2012 05:30 am (UTC)
Re: Golly - all the dodges
Everyone I could list would get passed by you as "nobodies" which of course is how you all discount all the mobs that appear in your name.

"In August 2010, a Pew Research poll showed that 18% of Americans believed that Obama is a Muslim, and 31% of Republicans did so"

It has come up at least every single tea party rally I have attended.

Relatives - both E's and mine.

I noticed that it came up to one of the Republican town hall meetings and they shut it down (to their credit).

And the right never plants anyone at liberal rallies... what bunk... and no - I feel comfortable it is not plants.

I don't care if Santorum is a Catholic... I care that he is a religious fanatic. There is a difference. Fanatics are not constructive.
Apr. 6th, 2012 05:47 am (UTC)
Re: Golly - all the dodges
Ah ... I see. you've got nobody then.

Sure ... disinformation is a liberal specialty.

Mobs? Where? How many TEA Party attendees of the millions that have assembled have ever been arrested ... and for what?

They even pick up their trash.

How many OWS "mobs" have involved arrests, rapes, arson, kidnapping, excrement, filth, rats, thefts, destruuction of private property, etc.? Hmmmmmm?

A fanatic?

Ahhhh ... I see. *lol* Now what has he ever done in government that would lead you to believe that?

Barack Obama sat in a racist Marxist, anti-Semitic, black liberation theology church for almost 20 years. His mentor was great pals with Louis Farrakhan. Does that qualify as a "fanatic"?

Nancy Pelosi is a devout Catholic (she claims) too. Is that a problem?

Oh, and Jon Huntsman is a Mormon. You seemed to love the guy. Is he a fanatic too?

Apr. 6th, 2012 09:05 pm (UTC)
Re: Tollerance is an Atheist value that is wearing thin
Actually at the Michelle Bachmann tea party sponsored rally here in Jax they did not in fact pick up their trash. The people working in the place were complaining about it.

MOST of the Occupy events I have been to the people carried their own trash bags and used them.

What can I say - there are pigs in all walks of life.

We already covered the size, scope, and time of the OWS movement. Know what - on a Naval Vessel at sea we had incidents of arrests, rapes (oh yes - rape), arson, prostitution, excrement (yes really), filth (yes - the the point that a few spaces on the ship had to be closed off until port) , rats (oh hell, yes - rats and mice), thefts (almost daily), destruction of private property, destruction of government property... treason (sabotage actually), and a wide variety of chemical issues , assaults, vandalism, and etc. This was on an enclosed navel vessel hundreds of miles out . Of course there are a mix of people on those boats - including Muslims, Hispanics, Filipinos, Asians... we even had some French and a Couple Brits - and I am CERTAIN there were plenty of liberals as well - because only liberals engage in these activities (funny - I have actually seen otherwise, but you know best).

Unlike you and your religious right, unlike most fanatical religious people, no. I do not get that worried about political figures or anyone else (for that matter) espousing their faith - so long as it is not directed at me or my public policy. As noted, we have had ONE Congress Person who was openly secular. We are expected to accept this state of our public figures and generally do. It is the hostility directed towards us by the so called faithful that brings out the less agreeable side of atheists. You neglected the point made earlier that these people could not expect to get much support if they were anything but a member of some such mythology. Were these stigmas removed from society I would bet many more of them would "come out" openly. Maybe not Pelosi (right - pick someone I just identified as a major witch and suggest for the thousandth time that I am a fan - there's no talking to you folk when you put your baggage in our hands), or BHO or anyone specifically.

Huntsman... no he is not fantastic. He is less loathsome than some of the alternatives.

More people in the US have distrust Atheists than convicted felons, than ANY other person with SOME kind of faith, etc.

I don't think you realize, I spent twenty years in your smokey incense pews before I ACTUALLY woke up and realized how much of a fraud it is and was. I do not know any Atheists personally that were always atheists - I know they're out there, I just don't know any. We became atheists out of our studies, reading, sense of morality, and our lack of patients with the fraud and corruptions that are the houses of mythology. Sure they do good work. Sure there are very good people involved in them. No that doesn't change that they are frauds.
That said, I still have some level of cultural respect for the house of mythology. I still they are businesses and should be taxed - at least then they don't have to pretend to be muzzled by a tax exempt status.
Apr. 6th, 2012 05:33 am (UTC)
Re: Golly - all the dodges
Getting late - I need to take a Flex and drop off

Will deal with the discussions when I am back with the wakeful.

Going to read some Vonnegut for bed.

I can send you some of his books?
Apr. 6th, 2012 06:27 am (UTC)
Re: Golly - all the dodges
What "facts" are "wrong"?

Actually, on a related note, "love of money", not money, is the root of all evil.

Let me re-educate you on Scripture.

The camel through the "eye of a needle" analogy means this.

In Christianity, one cannot enter the "kingdom of Heaven" through good works, but through grace which comes from God. Good works are proof of faith.

Jesus did not tell the "rich man" that he had to give everything away to the poor to enter the Kingdom of Heaven but that, if he wanted to attain "perfection", as he kept asking Jesus, that he should give up everything he had and follow Him.

He showed that the man's love of his wealth, in spite of his being a good person, following the Commandments, etc. was greater than his desire to enter the Kingdom. If he had agreed to do so, Jesus wuld most likely have told him, like God did to Abraham when he was commanded to sacrifice his son Isaac, that just being willing to do so was enough.

We must do for others but it must be voluntarily and not through coercion ... because it is God-like to give with no expectation of reward. And that is difficult to do.

There's nothing wrong with being rich, but being selfish, or lazy, or vindictive, or a troublemaker, or greedy, whether rich or poor, is a great obstacle.

Jesus would never support FORCING redistribution of wealth or confiscating the property of people who earned it by a GOVERNMENT.

Additionally, the early Christians tried "communism" and it was a dismal failure for the same reasons it is today.

However, then, as today, the Churches have always aided the poor, the lame, the widows, the children, etc. through contributions from their flocks.

This whole "political interpretation" and appropriation of Jesus by the left is a recent phenomenon, many from that "social justice" crowd, including Catholics, having been suckered by Obama during his Chicago community organizing days.

He's still the same player.
Apr. 6th, 2012 08:43 pm (UTC)
Re: The tide goes in the tide goes out.
Greed is the root of many evils. That's True. Money is not evil and cannot be evil as money has no sentience for evil to exist in. Evil is a construct of humans and their sense of morality. To make a call that money is evil is somehow ... daft.

I disagree with your interpretation of the eye of the needle - the traditional use of it stands fine on its own.

You know, I am sure, that metaphors and other terminology have a way of seeing their accepted meanings migrate over time (see Yankee Doodle Dandy for a great example of context). I don't need to go further into that.

No, there is nothing specifically wrong with being rich. Lazy on the other hand, yes there are plenty of medical and ethical reasons to consider where it comes to laziness.

It means absolutely NOTHING to me what your demigod had to say on the subject except that the words attributed to him several hundred years after his unsubstantiated life are used with great injustice by those that would use them to defend the most horrid of behavior - decent behavior needs no such justification.

Good works are proof of good work ethics, education, experience and skills. To attribute them to faith or divinity (as is often done) is to belittle the efforts of those that made them.

To be willing to kill your son for any reason other than to end unimaginable, insufferable and insurmountable suffering or illness is morally reprehensible.

When you place thugs in positions of authority you get thugs with guns.

If doing the right thing with no fear of coercion is god like than I feel comfortably divine.

To attempt to parse out justifications using the dogmas of a mythology is pointless. I can use the same methodology of biblical or other religious texts to justify almost everything in the scope of human experience. It is easy enough claim divinity when a book of such size and scope contrived over centuries evolved into a tomb of what we deem civil, just and moral.

It is a waste of your efforts.
Apr. 6th, 2012 09:07 pm (UTC)
Re: The tide goes in the tide goes out.
Oh, so my "interpretation" is in error?

And what is the traditional meaning?

YOU brought up the scripture ... just as Obama does to support his ideology. Don't blame me.

You liberals LOVE to quote scripture when you think it supports your ideology. Right out of the Alinsky playbook.

Btw. My "interpretation" comes from Jesus' response to his disciples when they ask, after realizing that good works cannot save you, "Then who CAN be saved?"

Jesus answers, "Through God all things are possible."

Or something like that.

You see, when I read someone's words I prefer to let them explain what THEY mean first instead of assigning my prejudices.

The difference in Christianity is Christians are supposed to do good works WITHOUT expecting to be praised and singled out for them ... in contrast to the religion of liberalism where it is broadcast and applauded.

It's what people do when no one is there to see them that defines the individual ... as in Plato's "ring of invisibility" question.

Apr. 10th, 2012 02:18 am (UTC)
Re: The tide goes in the tide goes out.
Actually I was commenting on how if folk on the right want to belch out their religious justification until it is offered back at them.

The words stand for themselves. It is really hard for a rich man (in biblical tradition) to enter heaven. There are plenty of crazy discussions about various hidden meanings; but they all end up the same. The rich becoem rich through love of money and the love of money is a strong pull. Of course it is a silly discussion since the problem will never present itself.

As far as "Through god all things are possible" Simple logic tests that as completely absurd. I am familiar with the story - honestly it has been a LONG time since I read it (like maybe 30 years) - it is a story. It is supposed to make ya feel good. I t never seemed to.

As for xtians - if that statement were only true...

At any rate... it's still in my humble realm of knowledge, nothing but a myth with aspects of morality and common sense tossed in... and a fair bit of cultural and social bias of the day.

Where it that we could test the invisible ring theory. We can only answer for myself. I can tell you I am honest enough that I HAVE returned wallets full, returned to pay for merchandise I was not rung up for and etc. I live my words - and now and then I slip up; but I always try to stick to my code of conduct. When I catch myself I fix it.
Apr. 10th, 2012 02:27 am (UTC)
Belching liberals
RE: Actually I was commenting on how if folk on the right want to belch out their religious justification until it is offered back at them.

Her Mike. "You were the one belching"/

Obama was the one "belching".

The liberal media is the one "belching".

Al Sharpton and Jesee Jackson are the ones "belching".

Jeremiah Wright is back "belching" his hate and racism.

You leftists are like the little school bully who sneaks behind some and pushes him down and then wants to preach civility.

Rifgt from the Alinsky playbook.

And by now you know from me that Barack Obama TAUGHT Alinsky tactics ... and that they are mainstays now in the Demcratic Party, the NEA, the environmental wacko movement, Black Liberation Theology, the SEIU, the AFL-CIO, the Teamsters, the OWS movement, Academia ...

Nice group you rum with. ;-)
Apr. 10th, 2012 02:51 am (UTC)
Re: Belching liberals
One man's belching is another man's words of wisdom.

Apr. 6th, 2012 05:09 am (UTC)
Re: Golly - all the dodges
It's LIBERALS who throw people they disagree with out.

Ever notice the HOSTILITY conservatives are greeted with when they are on news shows, and how liberals/democrats are so gently engaged.

The fact is, Mike ... conservatives have played nice-nice to a fault and look what it's gotten them?

The left is destroying the country and dont expect the rest of us to do anything but kick their asses if possible.

They don't live in the real world.

Opinions are one thing. It's a free country ... so far. But acting in an illegal, thuggish, deceitful, unconstitutional manner isn't going to be allowed if we have anything to say about it.

Smarmy attitudes?

People generally get what's coming to them ... and shoving tyranny down our throats with a smile doesn't mean we have to say "Thank you sir. May I have more please?"

There is absolutely no longer any reason to reason with unreasonable people. True believers cannot be talked to. Their minds are closed.

The one good thing Obama has done is awaken more and more people about the destructive nature of unbridled liberalism.

And if you think they're "smarmy" now ... just wait. ;'-)

Apr. 6th, 2012 05:18 am (UTC)
Re: Golly - all the dodges
Not really. In fact Stewart is typically pretty good to conservatives - until they start to blather and than he at least stays funny.

Did you see the WHOLE Palin on Today - that was funny. SHE was being pretty prickly - but then so was that Milquetoast Lauer. Her responses to all things were so absurdly partisan and polarized - I would have been far less patient with her. I think she should fire her agent.

Have you watched Faux "News" when they discuss anything with a political content, when they have liberal guests? Really? Wow... no? I guess it's because you don't have cable...

Awakened? Really? I know a lot of people that adore him. They get mad at me for not being slavishly devoted to the cause. How dare I question PPAHCA.

You guys are out of touch on a lot of things.

Why did Olympia Snow quit? She's correct in her statements.

When we told you all to go pound salt, we really didn't know you would take it as "salt the land".
Apr. 6th, 2012 05:37 am (UTC)
Re: Golly - all the dodges
Stewart is a comedian I thought. You keep going back and forth. He spends about 70% of the time bashing the right ... usually misrepresenting the issues.

Yeah, he can "act" civil to create an illusion and then revert back to his same nasty juvenile style the next night. The truth is, liberal moderators CONTROL the conversation and only a skilful speaker who isn't afraid to sound discourteous can handle their little inquisitions with humor and style.

Liberals tolerant of other opinions?

Tell that to Juan Williams who got booted for only saying something anyone would think. You don't stray from the plantation without paying the price, right Juan? And he is STILL a big lib.

If Palin was a liberal, they'd LOVE her. I've met Palin and had a short chat with her. She is so down-to-Earth and genuine the left only wishes she was on their side. They are so torn.

They are SICK she doesn't agree with them and can put them down in a heartbeat, AND be self-deprecating and not take herself too seriously.

And she is an absolute KNOCKOUT at what, 47-48?

No I don't have cable but I have seen roundtables and do watch Chris Wallace on Sunday where EVERYONE is asked tough questions ... not like the ABC, NBC, and CBS shows where the Democrats get softballs (What do you make of those wascally Republicans?).

They love him because they are emotionally tied to him.

How many conservatives do you see on the other 93% of the media. At least Fox employes liberals.
Next time ask them what Obama's done to make their lives and this country better. Or do they get their news (if any) from NPR?

She has a quick mind and is a great communicator.

That KILLS them.
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